Beyond the Algorithm: Trust, Truth, and the Future of Decentralized Information | Billy Luedtke, Intuition

[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_01] This is the Crypto Hipster Podcast. This is not a traditional interview show. These are perspective-driven conversations with founders, builders, and independent creators shaping what comes next.

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_01] We go beyond headlines, beyond hype, and beyond price to explore ownership, freedom, and opportunity in the digital economy where builders talk freedom, not price. Welcome back to Crypto Hipster, Crypto Hipster Podcast. This is your host, Jamil Hasan.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_01] Today, I am joined by Billy Luedtke, who is the founder of Intuition. He was here on the show a couple years ago, and I'm very honored and excited to have him back. Intuition is a project exploring how we establish trust, reputation, and credibility in a decentralized world.

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_01] You know? So, as information becomes increasingly abundant and changes rapidly, particularly with AI, determining what we can trust, who we can trust, may be one of our greatest challenges going forward. So today, we'll explore Billy's journey, the origins of intuition, and what the future of trusted information might look like. Billy, welcome back.

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_00] Thank you so much for having me. Excited to do this.

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, you're very welcome. So let's, let's, let's, I think last time we focused only on intuition, but I want to focus on your founder's journey first. So let me, let's take us back to the beginning, right? What was your journey into blockchain and decentralized technology?

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, absolutely. Great question. So my journey in is, I started in 2012. So my, I, I, there was a very circumstantial situation where I kind of got exposed to the right things at the right time. So my first job ever was working on this distributed seismic network at Caltech with the United States Geological Survey Office.

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_00] So it got super early exposure to distributed systems. So before this project is called, you know, the quick catcher network, basically, you would have these very large centralized seismometers placed in strategic locations that were super expensive. And the whole, this whole initiative was to deploy very low cost sensors everywhere. So understood distributed systems and then moved over to financial services technology consulting and worked for Ernst & Young in that regard.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_00] So I started in the middle of the year, I started in the middle of the year, I started in the middle of the year, I started in the middle of the year, and kind of got exposed to the big banks and the whole financial system. And before all of this, I thought, oh, they've, they've, they've got all their stuff together. You see the big buildings and the big pillars. And it's like, oh yeah, I, I trust them to manage the economy and my money. And then you get behind the scenes. And it's like a guy with an Excel spreadsheet who can just like arbitrarily update values and hates his life.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_00] And it's like, oh my God, this is, this is how the sausage is made. That's, that's quite scary. And so, you know, I, I just kind of got exposed to it. And because of my exposure to these different things kind of understood the potential very early. So got involved with Bitcoin was one of the earliest Dogecoin miners very, got very lucky and heard about Ethereum before it, before it launched.

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_00] And, and right around the time that the white paper came out. And so, yeah, I've just been obsessed with this technology for pretty much my whole adult life and helped start the blockchain consulting practice at Ernst & Young. And then was kind of their tech lead for a while, and then moved over to a company called, called ConsenSys, where I pretty much spent my whole career in, in the blockchain space.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_00] And then a couple of years ago, wrote the white paper for Intuition. And we built a POC for it, for the East Denver hackathon one year, and then people were very excited about it. And so we decided to turn it into a, into an actual company. So that's kind of my, my, my general high level journey.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_01] Awesome. So what was a switch that made you want to leave ConsenSys and build Intuition? What, what, what, what was that moment where you decided, hey, I got to do this?

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_00] I think it was watching a lot of, so I really believe in self-sovereign identity and user centric data. And that's kind of one of the things that I have worked on in crypto for a very, like a decade now, almost. So I really believe that that is critical, civilizational infrastructure.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_00] And a lot of the self-sovereign identity players kind of have tried and failed. I think, you know, if you look at the failure rate, it's almost a hundred percent. And that's not for a lack of trying and not for a lack of really smart people trying to, to solve this problem.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_00] And so I just thought that I had some, some unique insights pertaining to this use case that no one else was kind of, kind of thinking about yet that, that I kind of believed were maybe kind of like objectively good ideas that needed to be pursued. And so, yeah, I just, you know, if someone else would have been the champion of those ideas that I believed in, I wouldn't have done it, but no one else was doing it.

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_00] So I had to roll up my own sleeves and get it done.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_01] It sounds good. I mean, self-sovereignty as critical human infrastructure. You're going to get a lot, you're going to get disagreement from a lot of governments.

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_00] For sure. Yeah. And I think that that is also one of the problems. That's why everyone tries and fails is because you're going up against the entire system, not even just governments, but big tech, because they profit off of them owning your identity and owning your data and you spending all of your time and energy and attention generating data for them that they then monetize and you get zero dollars.

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_00] And so we're just kind of glued to our nightmare rectangles, creating data for these companies that then, you know, we don't see any of the value in return. So kind of, you're kind of going up against everyone.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_01] Let's talk about those big tech. We, we have more information now, right? Available now, like than any other point that people ever did in human history. Right. It's just so, so out there so much. So why is it still so difficult to determine who we can trust?

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_00] Because we are. The way that the Internet has been built is it's all relatively centralized. And, and the way that you get your information online. The way that you discover things at scale is you always have to currently route through an intermediary. So, so, you know, think of doing a Google search.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_00] You're going through Google's algorithm and you're seeing what they want you to see. And you're not seeing what they don't want you to see. And on Twitter, you're going through Elon's algorithm. And, and just wherever you look, you're, you're going through the lens of, of someone. Um, and so that's problem number one. And the, the, the issue with that is it's getting worse significantly because of AI. And, and what's happening now is pre AI.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_00] You would maybe do a Google search and you would look at a couple of different platforms and what people were saying on a couple of different platforms. At the beginning of the Internet, everyone was a skeptic. Like, oh, I can't trust what you could, what you read online. And everyone has forgotten that, but it's, you know, people like, oh, Wikipedia, that's not real. You got to read the encyclopedia. And we just trusted it more and more. Um, and now what we're doing is completely trusting the AI companies.

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_00] So if you think about how people get information now, you send a prompt to a LLM and everyone just takes whatever they get back. It was like the canonical truth. And so imagine, imagine the AI companies controlling the entirety of the flow of information. Like if you control that, you control everything. You control what people think, what they buy. You're like, it's, it's so much more powerful than money.

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_00] And the reason we all did crypto is because we thought that money and finance was this system of extreme power where you have to decentralize it. Because if you control money and finance, you control a lot of things in the world. But if you control information, you control even more because you control maybe which money people believe in or which products they buy. Because you say, hey, what's the best office chair for me to buy? And it's like, this one is what you want. And maybe you don't even get to see the other options because it's just whatever they want to show you.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_00] And so that's one reason why. And then the other reason is the internet just was architected in this way where there was no kind of, let's call it identity layer at the layer of the internet. And there's the people who work at the layer of the internet have all been trying to solve this for 30 years or whatever.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_00] And there's been so much effort to try to give things decentralized self-sovereign identifiers. It just kind of hasn't happened yet. So we kind of started with a rocky foundation, made it work. And the way we made it work was through centralization. But now we've ended up in this place where there is, I think, an objectively better option in the self-sovereign identity path. And, yeah, I think the time is finally right for it.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_01] Great. So how would you explain intuition then to someone who's unfamiliar with the project?

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_00] I'd explain it as, there's a couple of ways to explain it. But I think the easiest way to grok what it means to a user, like what we're trying to do is, let's say you were to do a Google search. It's like decentralized search or decentralized information discovery. So let's say you were to do a Google search or a prompt to an agent.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_00] Instead of the results being based on their algorithm, what you can do is you can express who you trust in different contexts. And you're already doing that already. You follow people on Instagram. You connect with people on LinkedIn. You follow people on Twitter and interact with them. So you're expressing kind of your social graphs online already.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_00] So what if you could use these social graphs and use these web of trust-based principles, wherein instead of doing a Google search and it just being what Google wants you to see, you do a Google search or a prompt. And it says, okay, here's the entities that you trust. Here's what they're saying. And here's results based on your web of trust.

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_00] So you get back results that are, it's more kind of peer-to-peer information discovery. Because with these other options, you have this one centralized algorithm gives people like pretty similar results. This other path, you kind of have this more decentralized routing where people might get wildly different results based on who the entities that they've expressed they trust are. And so maybe that's not how I explain it to everyone based on the audience.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_00] Maybe that's a little bit too technical for some people, but that's the way that I like to describe it. Yeah.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_01] So my audience is both technical and non-technical, but one place I don't have an audience anymore is Twitter. Because I deleted my account on January 1st, the first thing I did for the new year. Congratulations. Thank you. And why did I do that? Because I constantly get fed stuff that I did not believe in, that was like political, that was like...

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_01] And like, so how do you determine what... If you're going to do... People are going to do this on their own and come up with their own circle of trust as far as other entities, how should they do it? And what makes them, you know, does that technology be a benefit to them if they're going to build their own web of trust?

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_00] Wow, that's such a good question. It's really hard. The answer is it's not easy. And the easier answer is always going to be, hey, don't do anything. Hang out and read what the internet tells you. It's always going to be less friction if you don't have to do anything. And so it's a little bit more difficult asking people to say who they trust and determine who they trust for themselves. But I think we kind of have to...

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_00] We can't be lazy. We got to take back our sovereignty as individuals. And so I think the way that you get people... I think people will start having problems like the ones that you've experienced and maybe start waking up or maybe they don't. And so I think you need some sense of urgency. If not, it might be hard.

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_00] We can do the work for them to the best of our abilities to kind of make this stuff happen in the background. So maybe people don't even know that they're doing it is the way that it happens. That's the ultimate state because I don't think that we can... I don't think even if you have a very easy way to do it, a lot of people will still not do it. And so I think it's kind of largely the onus is on us to make it happen behind the scenes, if that makes sense.

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_00] But I think the way that you do it is really just the way that you do it in real life. That's how we have existed as humans forever. You have to decide who you trust. If as a human you didn't decide who you trust, then you just died because some guy kills you. And he's like, oh, you made the wrong decision of who to trust. And now you're dead. Or you trusted the wrong animal. You thought the tiger was your friend. And now it's not. And so you're dead. And so we have to just...

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_00] We have the ability to discern who to trust. If we don't, maybe that's Darwinism. And you know, like you deserve to, you know, go by the wayside or whatever. Like that's how it's always worked. But we just, you just use your human ability to discern, ah, yes, like this feels right. I'm going to use my intuition and like my intuition tell me this guy is trustworthy. And so I'm going to trust him.

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_00] And then, you know, maybe just by trusting a couple people around you, you can go a couple degrees of separation out and you get a whole web. So maybe you don't have to trust like a million people or like a hundred people even. Maybe you trust like five people. And then those five people trust five people. And then those five traffic people trust five people. So then you very quickly get to a pretty good distribution if you just trust a couple people, which shouldn't be that hard. And I think we can do.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. It's just the process of discovering who those two people are. For sure. Yeah. Not easy. No. So this is different. What's the difference between like information being popular, right? Information being trusted. And information being true.

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_00] Totally different. Popular is a dangerous trap. And popular is, I think the optimizing for popular is what the internet is currently doing. And that has resulted in the slop. And that has resulted in a lot of this stuff that doesn't feel so good because the optimization

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_00] function is give us your attention. Give us your likes. Give us your clicks. Give us more of your time on the screen. And so if you're optimizing for people being on their devices for more time, you're going to optimize for popularity. Doesn't matter if it's true. Doesn't matter if it's trustworthy. It's just, oh, you get the eyeballs and you keep them glued to the screen.

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_00] So that's popular is an optimization for, I think, attention. And it's a day we're seeing the ramifications of that in the US. I think if you look at something like China, I don't know much about China, honestly. But from what I hear, they are the opposite. And they do their best to make sure the kids and stuff are consuming educational content. I got to do more research into this.

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_00] But in non-China, we're just optimizing for popularity versus truth and trustworthiness, which is not great. Then you get brain rot population. So that's popular. Trustworthy is... Actually, I'll start with true. So true is... I don't think that anyone should decide what's true.

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_00] It's tough. Like, what's true is what's social consensus. That's all it is. So if you think of the difference between a crazy person and a genius, a genius is really just like a crazy person who has achieved social consensus. It's like a person with a crazy idea, but then everyone ends up agreeing with that crazy idea. Whereas the crazy person is just the person who has a crazy idea and then nobody agrees with them. So everything is just consensus. Even what we perceive as true.

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_00] Like, let's take gravity and like the laws of physics. You know, we decide that they're true. Like, I think those are the most true things. And the reason they're true is because we collect data. We get a really big sample size. It's like, okay, every time I jump, I come back down. 100% of the time I jump, I come back down. I'm going to come to the consensus that this thing exists because I haven't experienced anything otherwise. So I think that's what's true is, you know, it's consensus.

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_00] Like majority consensus, maybe. Maybe like, oh, maybe let's define true. This is cool. I've never done this. Maybe, maybe let's define true as overwhelming majority consensus. Because I don't know another way to define it because, you know, we might be perceiving a reality that doesn't even exist. It might be a simulation. So is that true? Gets very philosophical very fast. So let's define it as super overwhelming majority consensus.

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_00] And then trustworthy is, you know, it's very contextual. And there's no one flavor of it. It's, you know, which book should I read next? There's no true answer to that. It's just trustworthiness. It's, oh, I trust these people in the context of books. I like their taste. And I'm going to use that to get a trustworthy score with respect to which book I should read next. Or I like these opinions.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_00] And this is my political stance. And, you know, there's a completely other political stance that might be totally valid. But like trustworthy is, you know, me routing through them and being like, oh, I trust these people. And this seems like a credible thing. So I think it's just for things where you can't arrive at like super overwhelming majority consensus or subjective things versus objective things. It's like for anything that is subjective versus objective, you need trust.

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_00] You got to trust some people as opposed to just trusting, let's call it like base reality. Yeah.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_01] You can appreciate it. I bet you can appreciate this because you had a background in geology. My college advisor was Dewey McLean. Okay. He was my favorite professor of college. He taught historical geology. He believed that the dinosaurs went extinct because of the Deccan traps, volcanism in India and not the asteroid. Wow. You know, and he was called crazy all his career and no one believed him.

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_01] But like, I believed him. And, you know, he stood in that. He's like, he was committed to this thing. He believed that to be true. Well, everybody else telling him no. And I admire him so much for that. But he did not get financial incentives. He was a professor, right? But can financial incentives improve information quality and trust? Or do they introduce new ways to manipulate trust and make it difficult for others to stay committed to what their commitments are?

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_00] Both, I think, is the correct answer. So as we see with the popular thing, that's money influencing what's true in negative ways. So we have very apparent, visceral, widespread evidence that money can and bad incentives can make information bad and less trustworthy and less truthful.

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_00] So we know that for certain. We're seeing it right now in a crazy way. Can it make it more true? We're also seeing that. We're seeing that very recently with the category of information finance. And, you know, that term kind of got co-opted by the attention finance folks, which, again, it's just perverse incentives. It's like the Kaidos of the world where it was like, yap on Twitter and get money for yapping. Like, that's not signal.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_00] But true InfoFi, I think there's tons of merit to it. Say what you want about Polymarket Call Sheet, giant casinos. Yes, like they have devolved crazily. But the original vision for PredictionMarket, that was like one of the first use cases for Ethereum back in 2014, 2015. Like I still, I invested in Augur. I still have my Augur tokens. I don't know. They're somewhere. I think they were zero. But they basically, they are surfacing higher quality signal for some things.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_00] Like if there's sufficient volume and like if there's money to be made and kind of predicting the truth, like you can generate good information through financial incentives. And so I think if you construct the system properly and you have the right optimizations, then yes, I do think that financial systems can absolutely result in better truth. Also, look at Chainlink. Look at the Oracle market. It's like financial incentives allowed us to get truth onto the blockchain.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_00] So I guess Chainlink is probably a better example and just the whole Oracle space. But we now know that, you know, finance can both or money and economics and incentives can pervert information and it can also make information more provably true. So we have examples of both.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_01] Awesome. So do you think that if we decentralize information, can we, can we decentralize information without decentralizing accountability?

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_00] No, I don't, I don't think so. And I think that that is good. I think that we need a little bit more accountability in our lives. I actually think that accountability is a really good word to describe what we need and not even just what we need. It's also what, this is a little bit of a side tangent, but I think it's so important. I've been waiting to say this. So I think it's what AI agents need.

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_00] It's what, so if you think of, everyone's like, oh, we need to solve the AI alignment problem. And we need to code the agents to only be good. And we need to create the perfect goal function for them. So they don't, it's like the scary scenario is we say, hey, save the earth. And then the way that they save the earth is they kill all the humans. Like that's the, always the example that's given for how AI could go wrong. What if you do it differently?

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_00] What if you just, you know, make the, instead of having these ephemeral agents who don't have an identity, who don't have persistence and don't care about their longevity and their reputation, they'll just do whatever. They'll do whatever to do the goal. But if you give them accountability where it's like, hey, you're going to have to coordinate in the future with humans. Hey, like in order for you to keep doing stuff, you got to act good. Like I think that accountability is not just the answer for humans. I think it's the answer for AI.

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_00] And I think that's, I think identity and reputation and accountability will be the thing to solve the AI alignment problem. Just make them care about being able to coordinate with others in the future, especially humans.

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_01] Got it. So as your, as intuition grows, how do you balance your original vision? Like with like building a sustainable organization and being able to navigate this, this, these three things.

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, that, that's actually the best question. And I don't have these in advance. So like, that's so good. So the. All right. So the original vision, very philosophical, very hard. Almost impossible. Like it's just, it's like the one of the hardest, like solving identity at the layer of the internet. It's a dream and it's more research and development.

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_00] So someone has to do it. I'm glad we've gotten the opportunity to, to do a ton of thinking on that front. Um, we built things that solve it the way that it needs to be balanced, which is not what crypto has been doing for a long time. And I'm very grateful that we have gotten the opportunity to see this and introduce the balance.

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_00] The way that you balance it is you have to build a business that solves a real problem for real people to kind of fund the, the, the big vision. So look at SpaceX. It's like make life multi-planetary, but first Starlink build crazy internet business, fund the rockets.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_00] So, you know, you, you gotta, if you have these big visions, you gotta start with something that like potentially solves a, a, a, a real problem in the immediate term and can keep your company going for a while. And so that's what we've been doing as of, you know, we, we realized this, let's call it a year ago, a little, like probably a year ago.

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_00] So, and yeah, so what we're doing now is we're building kind of a, what we think is a really good application of the technology that we've built. So, so if you think, if you look at, uh, the things that are getting traction in, in, in the crypto markets, it used to be infrastructure, R and D stuff. Now it's, it's all shifting to revenue producing stuff at the application layer.

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_00] So, uh, it's hyperliquid, the perp decks versus hyperliquid, the EVM, you know, nobody, I feel like people don't even care that it's a chain. They're just like, Oh, really good perp decks. So that's what makes the money. You know, you've got poly market versus boomer protocol. Who knows what UMA protocol, like, okay. Poly market uses this infrastructure, but no one, they're not, the UMA protocol is not making the money. The poly markets is, is the sustainable business on top and now they can do whatever they want with their success. So yeah, we're just, we're building at the application layer.

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_00] We're building things that solve hopefully real world needs for real world people. And then hopefully that will allow us to, uh, achieve our bigger visions of changing identity and reputation at the societal level.

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_01] Awesome. Awesome. So I'm trying to think about your, I'm out about AI agents and reputation. So identity is very important to people, but should the centralized reputation be as important for AI systems and AI agents? Totally.

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I think, and when I think, when people think of, uh, identity, I think they think of like an ID card, but identity is so much more. Identity is everything that you do. It's every action you do and every action that someone like, it's just every single data point about you kind of composes your identity. And so, yeah, agents need to, I really do think that, okay, my, my vision of where the AI wave goes.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_00] And it's, it's crazy that it's happening because we knew this for like two years, we've been working on this problem. Uh, and it just seems so obvious. So I think the ultimate end state is you have this coordinate, coordinating agentics form where you can think of each agent as a neuron in a brain.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_00] And so the ultimate state is this AI hive mind where all the AIs are connected and each AI agent serves a specific function. And so in order to know, you know, think of your brain, like which neuron to route to, you need to, the neurons need to have identity and reputation. So it's like, I, I like, let's say I fire off a prompt and it says, book me a dinner reservation. It's like, okay, which one, which agent is the best at booking dinner reservation?

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_00] Or like, which one knows the most about Billy's social graph? Which one knows the most about the restaurants over here? Which one knows about booking? And it just fires off the request to like the neurons in the brain that are the agents. And so in order for that to happen, which it seems obvious that that's what's happening, like we see it locally with the agentics, like with sub agents where, you know, different agents with different identities get fired off to perform different tasks and they come back together and merge their stuff. So that's going to happen at the global level.

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_00] And, you know, these agents are just going to exist ephemerally and you're just going to route stuff to the right agent for the job. And the only way that works is if you have reputation. So, you know, which agents are good at doing what.

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_01] It's going to be a different world, you know. So it sounds like you've had a lot to think about. And what's been your greatest personal challenge while building intuition?

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_00] Wow. It's really hard. Like, it's really hard to win at the startup game. It's much harder than I thought. It's just an act of complete suffering. And I think you've got to be kind of psychopathic to make this work. It's just the chance. Like, you're going up, you're playing in a, with software, you're playing in the global arena.

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_00] So if you're building kind of a local business, you know, you're competing against the people in your area. That's not, if you're playing on the internet, you are competing against everyone, everywhere, all the best people and technology in the whole world. It's just this global arena of all the best players. And that's hard. And just winning is, it's just this process of trying everything and failing infinitely and just keeping going.

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_00] And so I really just think all of it's hard and it's just a stamina game. We'll see if we win or we lose it, you know. So, but, you know, all you can do is survive and keep going. And yeah, just, it's, it's just, everything about it is hard, honestly.

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_01] I understand the stamina game. So, yeah. So what point do you think that a founder has to stop thinking like a creator, like a founder, and start thinking like a steward instead? Mm-hmm.

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_00] Probably when you kind of, that's a good question. Maybe when you get a, you cross like a threshold of product market fit, I'd say. So I think until that point, you kind of have to have this creative, innovative, creative, like founder mind that sees something that maybe the world doesn't see. And brings that idea to life.

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_00] So it's like, okay, first you got to have the idea that's different from everyone else and unique and novel. And then you got to manifest that idea in the physical world in a way which resonates with people. And so once I think the, the manifestation of the idea in the physical world starts resonating with people a sufficient amount, then you can transition over to like steward mode and be like, okay, you know, I've given birth to the baby. You know, we've got these other people who are up and taking care of the baby.

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_00] I can now help take care of the baby instead of trying to give birth to a good baby.

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, that makes sense. Probably product market fit makes a lot of sense. So let's talk about product market. I mean, let's not, let's, let's, let's, let's look down the line, you know, like 20 years from now, right? You achieve product market fit, intuitions meet your expectations, exceeds what you're doing. What do you think that we'll look back on today and realize that we fundamentally misunderstood about trust, technology, human behavior, self-sovereignty?

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_00] I think we will look back and miss realize that we misunderstood the, the way things could be and what's possible. And the fact that there is just a very obvious way to do things better. I think we will have misunderstood.

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_00] We'll look back and say, oh, we really misunderstood our relationship with the internet and with big tech companies. You know, we thought, I don't know what people thought. Like, I think, I think we'll look at this as some sort of psychosis where we're all just kind of, we're like glued. And it's like, oh my God, I can't believe the people were like staring at their phones like this for 12 hours a day. And I think, I think it will actually seem, seem crazy.

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_00] And I hope even if we play a small part in people realizing, oh, wow, it's, it's due to incentive misalignment. And I can't believe that the whole system was architected on these misaligned incentives that we're trying to just generate attention versus productivity or happiness or truth or trust. So I think that's the huge misunderstanding that's going on right now is you think that you're like digesting news and learning.

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_00] And it's like, oh, actually, you know, a lot of the time you're just getting farmed for attention.

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, that's apparent. To me, that's apparent. Yeah, I think so. Very good. All right. So I want to thank you very much today. I have one last question. How can listeners more learn more about you and intuition?

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, go to intuition.systems. The app that I mentioned is launching soon. It'll be at app.intuition.systems. URL subject to change. So if you're listening to this later, name of the app might change. We're calling the app also intuition right now. So same URL. But you can find us at 0xintuition on Twitter, still on Twitter. Don't know a better platform except for maybe intuition when we launch. But yeah, I'm 0xbilly also on Twitter.

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_00] That's kind of my main social media. And I do think that that is all of our links. If you want to talk to us, hop in our Discord. We're always around, happy to chat. And yeah, really excited for what we got going on. So hope that anyone listening comes and checks us out. Excellent. Thank you very much for your time today. Enjoy the conversation. Likewise. This is amazing.